delax
07-16 07:31 PM
I think IV did great today. BUT
lets not act as children and pick fights with AILA. Please remember, due to their vested interest, there is NO ONE else who is more PRO-immigrant than AILA.. not even tech-employers..
So if they are saying situation might be fluid and if they are saying not to spread rumours.. then so BE it..
I hope I am wrong but seems like tiny access and frustration is causing few IV core members BIG heads ..
This is time to be calm, AND YES DISCREET!!!!
Before people start dumping on me.. please note.. we are among friends here and one of the ways to keep in check these things is to call upon friends when you feel they made a mistake.. and I FEEL IV made a mistake.. NOT in disclosing the knowledge but making an issue out of AILA warning and picking fights with them..! So lets take that out.. we know you stand by.. why keep it..?
Well said - The greatness of a person lies in the humility that goes with success.
I cant imagine the Mahatma thumping his chest with arrogant pride when India attained independence. So much for our committment to Gandhigiri that at the first sign of success - the daggers are out of the cloak.
lets not act as children and pick fights with AILA. Please remember, due to their vested interest, there is NO ONE else who is more PRO-immigrant than AILA.. not even tech-employers..
So if they are saying situation might be fluid and if they are saying not to spread rumours.. then so BE it..
I hope I am wrong but seems like tiny access and frustration is causing few IV core members BIG heads ..
This is time to be calm, AND YES DISCREET!!!!
Before people start dumping on me.. please note.. we are among friends here and one of the ways to keep in check these things is to call upon friends when you feel they made a mistake.. and I FEEL IV made a mistake.. NOT in disclosing the knowledge but making an issue out of AILA warning and picking fights with them..! So lets take that out.. we know you stand by.. why keep it..?
Well said - The greatness of a person lies in the humility that goes with success.
I cant imagine the Mahatma thumping his chest with arrogant pride when India attained independence. So much for our committment to Gandhigiri that at the first sign of success - the daggers are out of the cloak.
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nissan_1
11-30 09:30 AM
I have also applied for the canadian PR 1.5 months ago. Yesterday I got a letter from canadian consulate to sit for IELTS as I am clamming 16 points on language skill with supporting documents. Now, I do not want to sit for IELTS..is there any way out? Do you guys know any small consulting firm in canada who can give me a HRSDC approved job offer? I will not mind to work for them for a year if I get my PR (it's better then waiting for GC for another 10 years)...
alterego
04-09 11:20 PM
Take the offer on EAD as you are now legally eligible to do.
In the unlikely event that something happens to your 485, you could then approach the program and ask them to do a H1 visa for you, otherwise you would have to leave the program. They would likely not risk losing GME funding.
Nowadays getting a good fellowship has gotten rather difficult, I'd consider taking the small risk involved.
Consult a good attorney to get their professional advise.
In the unlikely event that something happens to your 485, you could then approach the program and ask them to do a H1 visa for you, otherwise you would have to leave the program. They would likely not risk losing GME funding.
Nowadays getting a good fellowship has gotten rather difficult, I'd consider taking the small risk involved.
Consult a good attorney to get their professional advise.
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posmd
04-06 10:18 PM
All this is a lot of posturing. I think they will get a bill out of senate. Dems. want as few modifications as possible, Reps. want to weaken its pro immigrant provisions as much as possible. It is surprising to me that even with a minority 45 in the senate they are weilding more power as they are more united 40 or so solidly behind kennedy, compared to Reps. who are divided and so weakened. The bill is hence being shaped more to the pro immigrant Dems.
I doubt the Reps. will kill it on the senate floor, they will atleast wait until house/senate conference to do that.
Will be interesting tomorrow. Lets Pray as Cardinal Mahoney suggested.
I doubt the Reps. will kill it on the senate floor, they will atleast wait until house/senate conference to do that.
Will be interesting tomorrow. Lets Pray as Cardinal Mahoney suggested.
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kartikiran
06-17 02:19 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
kminkeller
03-09 01:08 PM
Hmm thats weird. So what is porting? Does it mean that you can port from EB2 to EB2 only? I was thinking since I have my approved labor and I140 on EB3 and now as I have gained more experience and my salary meets the criteria I should be able to port from EB2 to EB3. If this is not the case then it is messed up.
BTW dentist, I am starting a new job by the end of this month and need to talk to the employer on my situation as they are willing to help me with my paperwork. that is why it is urgent.
Anyone has any insight to this matter.
Thanks.
BTW dentist, I am starting a new job by the end of this month and need to talk to the employer on my situation as they are willing to help me with my paperwork. that is why it is urgent.
Anyone has any insight to this matter.
Thanks.
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arunmohan
11-21 01:42 PM
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siravi
08-24 10:24 AM
Listen Live: http://www.wpr.org/webcasting/live.cfm
Call in: 1-800-486-8655
or 227-2050 in Milwaukee
Call in: 1-800-486-8655
or 227-2050 in Milwaukee
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Jimi_Hendrix
11-02 02:41 PM
cases where I140 is approved and I485 is pending for more than 6 months i.e. AC21 cases? I think in these cases you can move to a different state. Can anyone validate this?
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bigboy007
12-10 02:18 PM
Also some one has pointed out that SOC codes should be same or similar:
Now as per DOL website:
15-1000 Computer Specialists
** 15-1010 Computer and Information Scientists, Research
**15-1011 Computer and Information Scientists, Research
15-1020 Computer Programmers
15-1021 Computer Programmers
15-1030 Computer Software Engineers
15-1031 Computer Software Engineers, Applications
15-1032 Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software
15-1040 Computer Support Specialists
15-1041 Computer Support Specialists
15-1050 Computer Systems Analysts
15-1051 Computer Systems Analysts
** 15-1060 Database Administrators
**15-1061 Database Administrators
** 15-1070 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
**15-1071 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
** 15-1080 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts
**15-1081 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts
15-1090 Miscellaneous Computer Specialists
15-1099 Computer Specialists, All Other
==============================================
I know "**" ones are different and doesnt apply to what i am looking does this mean people go in and around these rest of SOC as and when my new job is in "Computer Specialists" range? i am confused.
What role should i do to intimate USCIS and how do they enquire about htis is it when i do H1b Transfer ?
Now as per DOL website:
15-1000 Computer Specialists
** 15-1010 Computer and Information Scientists, Research
**15-1011 Computer and Information Scientists, Research
15-1020 Computer Programmers
15-1021 Computer Programmers
15-1030 Computer Software Engineers
15-1031 Computer Software Engineers, Applications
15-1032 Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software
15-1040 Computer Support Specialists
15-1041 Computer Support Specialists
15-1050 Computer Systems Analysts
15-1051 Computer Systems Analysts
** 15-1060 Database Administrators
**15-1061 Database Administrators
** 15-1070 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
**15-1071 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
** 15-1080 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts
**15-1081 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts
15-1090 Miscellaneous Computer Specialists
15-1099 Computer Specialists, All Other
==============================================
I know "**" ones are different and doesnt apply to what i am looking does this mean people go in and around these rest of SOC as and when my new job is in "Computer Specialists" range? i am confused.
What role should i do to intimate USCIS and how do they enquire about htis is it when i do H1b Transfer ?
more...
jkays94
04-18 07:49 AM
The McCain-Kennedy bill is what had the EB provisions in the first place long before Frist or Martinez-Hagel put their bills. Senator Kennedy has been fighting for immigrants rights for almost 40 years (longer than someone of us have been alive) including legal immigration. His own brother President John F. Kennedy wrote a book called - We are a nation of immigrants.
I am sorry but with all due respect to Sen Kennedy he could address the rally of bunch of illegals waiving Mexican Flag and demanding their "RIGHTS" in Spanish. We have sent faxes in English to Senetor Kennedy requesting to support Bill that will provide relief to Legal immigrant communites but still nothing specific to our cause.
Please let us refrain from making conclusions as to who was at the rally, there were many legal immigrants and citizens at the DC rally of many nationalities and backgrounds, it was covered live on CSPAN twice for its entire 4 hr duration -- CSPAN as you know is funded by US public funds and would not cover an event dominated by illegals. The US constitution guarantees constitutional freedoms and rights to all who are within its borders and that would include the right to assembly and freedom of speech. FYI, there are 43 million Hispanic-Americans in the US. The DC rally had just as many American flags as many other rallies around the country on April 10. Senator Kennedy has done a lot for legal immigrants, but lets face it, with no CIR, there will be no separate bill for legal immigrants, we would have to rely on ammendments to other bills and those ammendments would be subject to the fate of sections 8001 and 8002 of S1932. CIR originated in the Senate through McCain-Kennedy, the EB number provisions were in this bill, so lets give credit where its due and not say that nothing has been done for legal immigrants by the Senator.
I am sorry but with all due respect to Sen Kennedy he could address the rally of bunch of illegals waiving Mexican Flag and demanding their "RIGHTS" in Spanish. We have sent faxes in English to Senetor Kennedy requesting to support Bill that will provide relief to Legal immigrant communites but still nothing specific to our cause.
Please let us refrain from making conclusions as to who was at the rally, there were many legal immigrants and citizens at the DC rally of many nationalities and backgrounds, it was covered live on CSPAN twice for its entire 4 hr duration -- CSPAN as you know is funded by US public funds and would not cover an event dominated by illegals. The US constitution guarantees constitutional freedoms and rights to all who are within its borders and that would include the right to assembly and freedom of speech. FYI, there are 43 million Hispanic-Americans in the US. The DC rally had just as many American flags as many other rallies around the country on April 10. Senator Kennedy has done a lot for legal immigrants, but lets face it, with no CIR, there will be no separate bill for legal immigrants, we would have to rely on ammendments to other bills and those ammendments would be subject to the fate of sections 8001 and 8002 of S1932. CIR originated in the Senate through McCain-Kennedy, the EB number provisions were in this bill, so lets give credit where its due and not say that nothing has been done for legal immigrants by the Senator.
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swamy
04-22 09:28 PM
why ban- let bigots have their say too & demean themselves in full view (what kind of degenerate would use terms like 'anchor babies')
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dealsnet
03-30 09:43 AM
:eek:What is your point ?
What you want to say ?:confused:
Ok sorry if I post this in the wrong place. So I married my wife in 2004 and we began the immigration fillings right away. so you know I was turned away at the border in 2000 because I was going to stay with my wife and her family for 3 months.
When they asked why they would put me up for that long, I told them they were like my adopted family. they still turned me away saying that the money I had at the time $300 was not enough to support my self for that time. this was summer break from school. So that is from my record and the officer who interviewed me wrote in his report that I intended to be adopted for immigration purposes. I think he just mis understood me. ok so that is in the noid. when we went to the first interview the woman was hostile towards my wife and I asking about our age and how we met we are 22 years apart in age. we provided her with documents some bills, photos and joint bank account statement. this is all we had in the first 4 months of out marriage. she asked repeatedly why we had not made any major joint purchases Why we didn't have joint health care. both because I had just started working and had not saved money yet.
We had a second interview to which we took the same documents and more. This interview was short. The interviewer was professional and asked alot of yes and yes questions and would stop us from going on more then that. he said that he had to talk with his supervisor and we would hear from him with in six months. So nothing from them from them for 4 years I called the help line once a year and kept up my EAD and worked full time. Then 2 guys showed up and asked to be showed around the house. we let them in and they interviewed us they took some photos and said have a good day.
Then 6 months later we received our first NOID. Stating that I had been turned away the one time and that I had said I was to be adopted. That I was in a relationship with a person that does not exists. They pointed out that there were photos of my wife with her ex-husband on the walls.
So we go see some lawyers talk to like 6 of them and picked the one who seemed best. talked to people in out community friends who had immigrated. ects. so his plan was to withdraw and file anew to get a fresh first interview. So we refiled with a stack of documents 4 inches thick. insurance, all of our bill, tax returns, car payments. anything we could think of.
So we get anther interview dude takes us back to his office. asked me the basic security questions. and sent me away. Then told my wife and lawyer that the first filing was denied and letters sent. and that they never received our letter withdrawing the first filing. we never received their denial letter. He said he would review out case and the new documents. he sent a NOID for the second filing like 4 months later. So we responded to the noid with a letter from my wife and I refuting the noid line by line. And with letters from friends PHD professors at the local collages. about 10 - 15 all in all and we have not had a reply from them. So the layer said that we had to wait on the USCIS to make the next move. is this so is there anything we can do to move this along? should we switch lawyers? we really like the man we have but I dont know its been over a year now.
sorry for the poor grammar its really late here. thanks for your health.
What you want to say ?:confused:
Ok sorry if I post this in the wrong place. So I married my wife in 2004 and we began the immigration fillings right away. so you know I was turned away at the border in 2000 because I was going to stay with my wife and her family for 3 months.
When they asked why they would put me up for that long, I told them they were like my adopted family. they still turned me away saying that the money I had at the time $300 was not enough to support my self for that time. this was summer break from school. So that is from my record and the officer who interviewed me wrote in his report that I intended to be adopted for immigration purposes. I think he just mis understood me. ok so that is in the noid. when we went to the first interview the woman was hostile towards my wife and I asking about our age and how we met we are 22 years apart in age. we provided her with documents some bills, photos and joint bank account statement. this is all we had in the first 4 months of out marriage. she asked repeatedly why we had not made any major joint purchases Why we didn't have joint health care. both because I had just started working and had not saved money yet.
We had a second interview to which we took the same documents and more. This interview was short. The interviewer was professional and asked alot of yes and yes questions and would stop us from going on more then that. he said that he had to talk with his supervisor and we would hear from him with in six months. So nothing from them from them for 4 years I called the help line once a year and kept up my EAD and worked full time. Then 2 guys showed up and asked to be showed around the house. we let them in and they interviewed us they took some photos and said have a good day.
Then 6 months later we received our first NOID. Stating that I had been turned away the one time and that I had said I was to be adopted. That I was in a relationship with a person that does not exists. They pointed out that there were photos of my wife with her ex-husband on the walls.
So we go see some lawyers talk to like 6 of them and picked the one who seemed best. talked to people in out community friends who had immigrated. ects. so his plan was to withdraw and file anew to get a fresh first interview. So we refiled with a stack of documents 4 inches thick. insurance, all of our bill, tax returns, car payments. anything we could think of.
So we get anther interview dude takes us back to his office. asked me the basic security questions. and sent me away. Then told my wife and lawyer that the first filing was denied and letters sent. and that they never received our letter withdrawing the first filing. we never received their denial letter. He said he would review out case and the new documents. he sent a NOID for the second filing like 4 months later. So we responded to the noid with a letter from my wife and I refuting the noid line by line. And with letters from friends PHD professors at the local collages. about 10 - 15 all in all and we have not had a reply from them. So the layer said that we had to wait on the USCIS to make the next move. is this so is there anything we can do to move this along? should we switch lawyers? we really like the man we have but I dont know its been over a year now.
sorry for the poor grammar its really late here. thanks for your health.
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meridiani.planum
07-12 08:35 AM
As long as your old I140 is not withdrawn, you can file 485. I think even if it is withdrawn, there still might be a chance, check with your NEW lawyer.
if the I-140 is withdrawn, its too late to file a 485. If its not withdrawn, he can go ahead and file a 485, but would need the co-operation of that employer (employment verification letter)
if the I-140 is withdrawn, its too late to file a 485. If its not withdrawn, he can go ahead and file a 485, but would need the co-operation of that employer (employment verification letter)
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SU1979
10-09 01:46 PM
To make you more clear:
The owner of company B was also a partner of company A. He had some problems with his another partner for which he created another company. I did not know anything about it as I always had contact with the owner of company B before coming to the USA. I only came to know when I entered into my first project. I am not sure whether he has generated any fake paystub from company A to transfer my H1B. If it is so, then why my H1B with company B is still pending ? I cannot also ask him as my relation is very bad with him now a days. I am not sure whether he has received or replied any RFE as the online receipt number doesn't indicate anything.
Any more comments ?
Thanks
The owner of company B was also a partner of company A. He had some problems with his another partner for which he created another company. I did not know anything about it as I always had contact with the owner of company B before coming to the USA. I only came to know when I entered into my first project. I am not sure whether he has generated any fake paystub from company A to transfer my H1B. If it is so, then why my H1B with company B is still pending ? I cannot also ask him as my relation is very bad with him now a days. I am not sure whether he has received or replied any RFE as the online receipt number doesn't indicate anything.
Any more comments ?
Thanks
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gchopes
08-04 09:41 AM
The following message from murhy forum over 3 years ago is still true. Correct? I cannot mail the renewed parole to my wife if she stays beyond the expiry of current parole.
--
It is not permissable for an individual to leave the United States during the validity of one Advance Parole document and return upon the validity of a second Advance Parole document.
In such circumstances and after such travel, the USCIS may deem that the adjustment of status application has been abandoned.
---
--
It is not permissable for an individual to leave the United States during the validity of one Advance Parole document and return upon the validity of a second Advance Parole document.
In such circumstances and after such travel, the USCIS may deem that the adjustment of status application has been abandoned.
---
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DDash
09-22 11:46 AM
....
Thats what GC means to me.
....
On the other hand...Its just the current state of mind...
Very well said....Great post. Often times, we get into a "rat" race and get desperate at times. Do the best that you can with what you have. Dont let the lack of GC limit you from achieving your goals. Dont get me wrong, we should fight for our GCs, but at the same time, dont let the desire to get GC stop you from achieving your goals.
Thats what GC means to me.
....
On the other hand...Its just the current state of mind...
Very well said....Great post. Often times, we get into a "rat" race and get desperate at times. Do the best that you can with what you have. Dont let the lack of GC limit you from achieving your goals. Dont get me wrong, we should fight for our GCs, but at the same time, dont let the desire to get GC stop you from achieving your goals.
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immiguy
07-20 04:47 PM
If your friend maintains H status, she could bring her baby back on H4 visa.
Well, actually she does. But they are worried that they GC might be approved and their child would be out of status- any suggestions?
Well, actually she does. But they are worried that they GC might be approved and their child would be out of status- any suggestions?
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coolngood4u80
01-25 08:38 PM
Is this only for phds or for master graduates too?
jvs
03-02 06:36 PM
Regarding "New Scenario - Seeking second opinion"
Couple of things to consider...
1) You need to be present in US at time of applying for the extension and when its approved. In your case I think with travel coming up in June, you probably need to go premium so you have approval in hand my April end. Regular processing takes about 2-3 months I think.
2) You can only go 90 days in advance of your new/extended approval as far as I know. So you need to see if that matches when you plan to go for stamping.
If in similar situation I would probably do what you are planning. It adds some anxiety with both wedding and consulate visit at same time, but once past that it will make life little easier.
Couple of things to consider...
1) You need to be present in US at time of applying for the extension and when its approved. In your case I think with travel coming up in June, you probably need to go premium so you have approval in hand my April end. Regular processing takes about 2-3 months I think.
2) You can only go 90 days in advance of your new/extended approval as far as I know. So you need to see if that matches when you plan to go for stamping.
If in similar situation I would probably do what you are planning. It adds some anxiety with both wedding and consulate visit at same time, but once past that it will make life little easier.
astral1977
07-09 11:21 AM
smartboy75,
I-131 form is used for issuing re-entry permits, refugee travel & advance parole documents.
AOS applicants are issued advance parole document. The biometrics rule is only for those individuals who are issued re-entry & refugee travel documents.
If in doubt kindly read through the text that you pasted in your message.
Thanks.
Source www.immigration-law.com
07/09/2008: USCIS Biometric Changes For Re-Entry Permits and Refugee Travel Documents 07/08/2008
USCIS has issued revised instructions for USCIS Form I-131, Application for Travel Document. The instructions include changes effective March 5, 2008 that require applicants for re-entry permits and refugee travel documents to provide biometrics (e.g., fingerprints and photographs) at a USCIS Application Support Center (ASC) for background and security checks and to meet requirements for secure travel and entry documents containing biometric identifiers.
Q. May an I-131 applicant for a re-entry permit or refugee travel document complete biometrics outside of the United States?
A. Form I-131 instructions provide guidance for certain persons who are abroad at the time of filing to visit a U.S. Embassy or consulate for fingerprinting, although all applicants are urged to file before leaving the United States. Since certain overseas offices have the discretion to accept and adjudicate applications for refugee travel documents, although it is not mandatory that they do so, an applicant for a refugee travel document may complete biometrics outside of the United States, but is encouraged to wait to travel until his or her biometrics have been collected and the document delivered. As discussed earlier, certain overseas USCIS offices may, in their discretion, adjudicate Form I-131 filed for a refugee travel document (but not re-entry permits), where the applicant has failed to apply while in the U.S. (see 8 C.F.R. � 223.2(b)(2)(ii)). However, applicants for refugee travel documents should not count on the overseas offices necessarily agreeing to adjudicate Form I-131 in all cases, particularly where it is evident that the individual could have applied while in the U.S. and attended his or her biometrics appointment. Applicants for reentry permits should attend their biometric appointment at the designated ASC. If the applicant departs the United States before the biometrics are collected, the application may be denied.
Q. Will Form I-131 re-entry permit or refugee travel document be denied if the applicant leaves the U.S. after the application has been filed and receipted but before biometrics are completed?
A. Form I-131 form instructions state, �Departure from the United States before a decision is made on an application for a Re-entry Permit usually does not affect the application. However, where biometric collection is required and the applicant departs the United States before the biometrics are collected, the application may be denied.� Travel is not advisable. If an applicant leaves and comes back, his or her application may be denied while abroad, and he or she may not be able to get back into the country. Even though an overseas USCIS office may, in its discretion, take the biometrics of an applicant for a refugee travel document, there is no guarantee that the office will necessarily exercise its discretion to do so. Therefore, USCIS again urges all I-131 applicants for whom biometrics will be required to file their applications well in advance of their scheduled departure dates. USCIS suggests applicants apply for a travel document at least 60 days prior to the date of travel.
So if we efile EAD and then 2 months down the line efile AP, do we have to go twice for biometrics ???
I-131 form is used for issuing re-entry permits, refugee travel & advance parole documents.
AOS applicants are issued advance parole document. The biometrics rule is only for those individuals who are issued re-entry & refugee travel documents.
If in doubt kindly read through the text that you pasted in your message.
Thanks.
Source www.immigration-law.com
07/09/2008: USCIS Biometric Changes For Re-Entry Permits and Refugee Travel Documents 07/08/2008
USCIS has issued revised instructions for USCIS Form I-131, Application for Travel Document. The instructions include changes effective March 5, 2008 that require applicants for re-entry permits and refugee travel documents to provide biometrics (e.g., fingerprints and photographs) at a USCIS Application Support Center (ASC) for background and security checks and to meet requirements for secure travel and entry documents containing biometric identifiers.
Q. May an I-131 applicant for a re-entry permit or refugee travel document complete biometrics outside of the United States?
A. Form I-131 instructions provide guidance for certain persons who are abroad at the time of filing to visit a U.S. Embassy or consulate for fingerprinting, although all applicants are urged to file before leaving the United States. Since certain overseas offices have the discretion to accept and adjudicate applications for refugee travel documents, although it is not mandatory that they do so, an applicant for a refugee travel document may complete biometrics outside of the United States, but is encouraged to wait to travel until his or her biometrics have been collected and the document delivered. As discussed earlier, certain overseas USCIS offices may, in their discretion, adjudicate Form I-131 filed for a refugee travel document (but not re-entry permits), where the applicant has failed to apply while in the U.S. (see 8 C.F.R. � 223.2(b)(2)(ii)). However, applicants for refugee travel documents should not count on the overseas offices necessarily agreeing to adjudicate Form I-131 in all cases, particularly where it is evident that the individual could have applied while in the U.S. and attended his or her biometrics appointment. Applicants for reentry permits should attend their biometric appointment at the designated ASC. If the applicant departs the United States before the biometrics are collected, the application may be denied.
Q. Will Form I-131 re-entry permit or refugee travel document be denied if the applicant leaves the U.S. after the application has been filed and receipted but before biometrics are completed?
A. Form I-131 form instructions state, �Departure from the United States before a decision is made on an application for a Re-entry Permit usually does not affect the application. However, where biometric collection is required and the applicant departs the United States before the biometrics are collected, the application may be denied.� Travel is not advisable. If an applicant leaves and comes back, his or her application may be denied while abroad, and he or she may not be able to get back into the country. Even though an overseas USCIS office may, in its discretion, take the biometrics of an applicant for a refugee travel document, there is no guarantee that the office will necessarily exercise its discretion to do so. Therefore, USCIS again urges all I-131 applicants for whom biometrics will be required to file their applications well in advance of their scheduled departure dates. USCIS suggests applicants apply for a travel document at least 60 days prior to the date of travel.
So if we efile EAD and then 2 months down the line efile AP, do we have to go twice for biometrics ???
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